Animals/Vampires

[The Merc]

Honestly, I have to agree with Gattsu here. The whole thing does smell like year old rotted bollocks, when it comes to allow the mods freedom to do as they wish in their project within reason. As was pointed out earlier in this thread, Vampires have been made to big a deal of. One could say, Vampires are Oku's Aliens, as Blues would be mine, and Puppet Master and his puppets (for the time being) was Ronnies. Integral to the story but not that big of a deal on the broader scope.

Animals, I'd have to say that with all the genus of the animals available, what you're effectively doing is playing mad doctor, but to afraid of the results, you mix in a lot of water to weaken the effects of the spliced creature. Heck, I might make a bloody Humming Bird animal character and guess what? By your rules, it'd be as strong as a bloody HAWK! >.> Or a Chihuahua, and let it be a Rock Weiler. Koala Bear (and yes, I realise that they're not actually part of the bear family) and it'll be a Grizzly. Let's see what other rediculous comparisons I can make.

Lemur, Silverback
Midget Horse, Stallion
House Cat, Lion

'nuff said.

[Shad²]

I have not participated in this discussion due to lack of time lately and will not mingle also. I trust you guys to come a good conclusion and I'd like to hear what has been decided in a summary.

[Benry]

what gattsu said was what i was trying to say.

[Cmdr. Maegil]

balance said:

As was pointed out earlier in this thread, Vampires have been made to big a deal of. One could say, Vampires are Oku's Aliens, as Blues would be mine, and Puppet Master and his puppets (for the time being) was Ronnies. Integral to the story but not that big of a deal on the broader scope.

Thank you, my point precisely!

Why don't you just label this kind of thing 'special characters' and leave it to the mods?
Each project could then post its own 'house rules' allowing no PC non-humans, or only realistic, caricature or anthropomorphic animals, or even the possibility of playing with aliens of any kind? (I only know what Def let out about the South's apotheosis, but if he makes a sequel... I tremble to think! )

Let the non-human character creation up to each project mod's good sense, taste, and trust on the player's ability; if he can handle it, fine, if not, the other players themselves are sure to start spamming the OOC...

[gattsu]

"As was pointed out earlier in this thread, Vampires have been made to big a deal of. One could say, Vampires are Oku's Aliens, as Blues would be mine, and Puppet Master and his puppets (for the time being) was Ronnies. Integral to the story but not that big of a deal on the broader scope.

Animals, I'd have to say that with all the genus of the animals available, what you're effectively doing is playing mad doctor, but to afraid of the results, you mix in a lot of water to weaken the effects of the spliced creature. Heck, I might make a bloody Humming Bird animal character and guess what? By your rules, it'd be as strong as a bloody HAWK! >.> Or a Chihuahua, and let it be a Rock Weiler. Koala Bear (and yes, I realise that they're not actually part of the bear family) and it'll be a Grizzly. Let's see what other rediculous comparisons I can make."

Very good point.. iff an animal is done correctly, it should feel like that animal, and not have rules that bog it down.

Basically if you add rules, make sure there worth following, not just adding complications that just add on a contrived system that eliminates spontaneity, and even reality from this rp.

Oh, and ditto on what Meagil said....

[KßзŁŁ]

Although deducting posts will make mods less likely to kill off an animal, consider the fact that animals (at least the ones I've interacted with) have never been killed off in the first place. If a mod is active on the forum, 250 posts is absolutely nothing, in my opinion. Every one of the mods currently in place can afford 250 posts for an animal if they decide they want one; it's not like we're trying to keep animals out of gantz here. Just imagine someone bringing in 10 horses and making a mounted infantry (can't remember the technical term here) squad; that's way more effective than a regular infantry squad, ESPECIALLY if the horses get suits. I actually plan to have a horse show up in my project (spoiler, I know; sorry, but it's necessary to get my point across), and believe me when I say a mounted fighter is far superior to a fighter running around on his own two legs.

As for vampires, there was a vampire in Southern that took many points and survived longer than most, and that was simply up to how defectron wanted his story to go. He certainly has enough posts to afford putting something like that (a 1000 point vampire) in his story. But what about people that simply have fun RPing, and never want to mod? If we only take points from people wanting to RP an animal or vampire in someone else's project, then the mods who are required to post can use their posts to grab a vampire in someone else's project (if they allow vampires there), instead of the person who comes here solely for RPing grabbing a vampire (remember there is supposed to be a limit on how many vampires there are in a project). I'd like for the projects to all have the same sort of rules, but the fact of the matter is, some people want to do their own thing. If a project mod decides not to deduct points for things such as this, then we can't incorporate the rest of the characters from other projects into plans for group hunts, character transfers, and the rest of the business we're trying to set up. Eastern proved that no project lasts forever, but a lot of people want to carry over their characters and continue RPing them. If the mod decides not to use post deduction, I can't promise that your character will stick around if another project dies. That's the bottom line.

[The Merc]

Cavalry, Kbell, they're called Cavalry. Usually.

Edit: Or Mounties.

[gattsu]

. Just imagine someone bringing in 10 horses and making a mounted infantry (can't remember the technical term here) squad; that's way more effective than a regular infantry squad, ESPECIALLY if the horses get suits. I actually plan to have a horse show up in my project (spoiler, I know; sorry, but it's necessary to get my point across), and believe me when I say a mounted fighter is far superior to a fighter running around on his own two legs.

Well I won't bother retyping what I already said, if they do/allow they that they shouldn't be mods. Your re-iterating the points I countered.

And it all depends what the person has planned... it's not a defined variable like you make it out to be. For players I could agree with the point deduction, for players but for mods that's just asinine. And transfers (dead projects) should be done/accepted by the mod... if you wouldn't want to except a character from your project that's perfectly fine with me.

It once again should be up to the mod if they want to transfer characters from dead projects... if a situation like the above happened, people would complain about it in OOC (like meagil said), and it would be eliminated by direct democracy.

[Cmdr. Maegil]

kbell said:

Although deducting posts will make mods less likely to kill off an animal, consider the fact that animals (at least the ones I've interacted with) have never been killed off in the first place

I was going to put a parrot instead of a wolf, but in the scenario it'd have lasted less than 5 minutes, or flown away as soon as it was on the open, crossing the line... That wouldn't have been nearly as much fun as a wolf, and I changed it to Road Kill - but what if the mission requires the mod to use animals? Let's see, should I lose 250 points per each or scrap the mission (this is not sarcasm, see example below)?

Just imagine someone bringing in 10 horses and making a mounted infantry (can't remember the technical term here) squad; that's way more effective than a regular infantry squad, ESPECIALLY if the horses get suits.
believe me when I say a mounted fighter is far superior to a fighter running around on his own two legs.

Hummmm, cavalry... goodie!
Oh, no! Isn't that hippodrome on fire?...

Now, KB, of course they are, on the right circumstances, at least, and when they aren't, the riders can simply dismount. But what if the mod wants to innovate and actually has a plot to offset that perceived bonus, or the extra speed an the ability to jump obstacles are needed for some 'road runner aliens' mission?

I'd like for the projects to all have the same sort of rules, but the fact of the matter is, some people want to do their own thing.

Sounds like the European Union... That imposed conformity almost broke it to pieces during the first attempts to unify it, and what they finally did was to create only a minimum set of directives to be their common guide, 'ground rules', I think you call it.
What happens is that while the same hygienic standards apply all over the EU, nobody forces the greeks to eat sauerkraut. They don't like it, and don't buy it, but will find it on offer.

If the mod decides not to use post deduction, I can't promise that your character will stick around if another project dies. That's the bottom line.

That's called 'embargo', and on a silly matter (but you are a yank, after all )

I say silly because if I don't want a certain type of character in my game, I won't accept it anyway regardless of points; but if I'm forced with one just because it says on the rules that since the player paid he could do a special character, I can guarantee it'll have a shorter lifespan than a snowball in hell. Unfortunately your bottom line argument does not proceed.


We don't agree on the special characters. Fine. There are people that agrees with me, you, or both. Great. So, will we find common points and allow flexibility (EU's expansionism), force our views on others (USA's Freedom^TM), or create a schism to purge the heretics (in God's name)?

[The Merc]

That's why I say the one pet exception. And I myself am in a toss up about whether I'll allow vamps or not.

[®onnie ®ude]

Jesus. Why does everyone make a big deal over the smallest shit? I mean seriously, I could understand if it were impossible for animals, humans or vampires to be killed, but w/ the new rules this IS possible and even more so. The animals and vampires were practically nerfed so there should be no reason for them not to be able to die on par w/ human gantzers. (Considering that vampires aren't allowed to mimic or store weaponry as well as the stealth function)

The main idea is to become a member, make a gantzer, enjoy a hunt or two and then try something new. By that time you should be able to trade your "POSTS" (not points) in and make a vampire or an animal. The opportunity of being able to do this will depend on if you have the required # of posts, # of hunts and whether or not that project already has 3 vampires or animals as gantzers. This limits the amount of people being animals and vampires at a time and prevents the mod from being overwhelmed and allows them to have control. On the flip-side, this also benefits up and coming rpers. There won't be added problems for rpers to be force fed the mod's overpowered NPC gantzers (yes, only gantzers) by limiting how many animals or vampires they can have in a gantz room at a time. This is a safety feature to ensure that shit doesn't get out of hand, because w/o posts there is no way to even have this privilege, even for mods. Thus making the project's 3 respective vampire and animal slots up for grabs by the mod and rpers.

So, what's the big deal? At the most there should be only 3 vampires and 3 animals in a project at the most. And that's just wishful thinking, because I highly doubt there will actually be 6 people w/ a 1000 or 250 post count that chose that particular project at that given time.

As for "why are there rules?", why shouldn't there be rules? Without them I doubt that the site would have advanced so far w/ its roleplay. In order to play a game there should be rules and even though we can't all agree on each and every rule you can't help but acknowledge the fact that this is as close as it gets to working and being reasonable. We could argue all day over this, but what it really comes down to is whether or not you want to try something new. Don't you get tired of expecting to see other humans in the gantz room that give you a sense of security? This isn't some damn dating chatroom; its fucking Gantz RP.

Your second chance at life...etc etc...

As for Animals, don't allow the generalization of them to sway you. There's reasons why some animals can and cannot be used and reasons why hawks are in the same category as hummingbirds. Its impossible to list every species of bird and its impossible to know every damn thing about them. If it bothers you so much and you want to be an animal, save yourself the drama and do some research on it. Then bring it up and discuss it w/ the mod of your project to ensure that the animal your being is roleplayed to your "honest" liking.

Think about our RP as it is now and then think of the idea of vampires and animals. What is there to lose that can be gained along the way?

[KßзŁŁ]

Cavalry! Thank you!

@ gattsu: The mod always has the opportunity to decide not to unify with the rest of the projects. I'm not trying to exclude anyone here, but there is a certain level of cooperation and rule making necessary if we want to make all of our projects somehow connected. That's just the way it is. Obviously, the mod has the last say in what happens in his project; I'm not going to try to force anything on anyone. Some people will likely want to be isolated from the rest of the board and not collaborate on advancing storylines; that's fine. I'm just trying to pave the way for those of us that are interested in doing things together, and the only way I can see to make animal and vampires something that people can't just grab right away is to limit them by post count.

As for what you're saying, Maegil, there's no need to scrap the mission; you could simply push it back until you have the required post count (unless you're bringing in more than one animal, you're already almost there), or rethink it; after all, you really decide what kind of weaponry/vehicles are available to your gantzers. I would imagine that you don't necessarily need to mount them on animals to achieve your goals.

[Dane]

...So am I allowed to use Vampires in LOG without a post deduction as long as they're not in the actual game unless they show up in cooperation with the aliens?

[®onnie ®ude]

dane13 said:

...So am I allowed to use Vampires in LOG without a post deduction as long as they're not in the actual game unless they show up in cooperation with the aliens?

Godammit Dane, we've said this thousands of times! No posts will be deducted from LOG vamps or animals. Even if they interfere w/ the gantzers during their missions they will not count as Gantzers unless they are recruited by gantz or in the apartment. lol, If that was the case you'd have like -80,000 posts because of last mission's 80 vampire melee you sprung on us.

[Dane]

Geez, alright, alright, sir. Just makin' sure cuz've all the stuff said after I asked.

[jjrev609]

can i get a template now?

[gattsu]

Just eliminate the point requirement for mods, it's restricting, your arguments are just bad (well for the mod part), and it isn't exactly uniting the board , or getting a general wave of contentment.

The rest of the stuff is okay, it needs work, but it's a beta... so that's okay.

Again, if two mods decided to do a joint mission, and they agreed to use the animals they had in there projects I wouldn't see that being imbalanced. As long as the mission fits.

Now if in your project you didn't agree with that (even if the mods had payed for them), I again would think that would be fine.

From what I've seen NPC animals/vampires haven't done any of the things you've described. There fine as long as the mod knows how to handle them (and mods should know how).

Hell, the things you described (to the best of my knowledge) haven't even happened on these boards... which is indicative of the fact that they probably won't (but probably isn't an ultimatum, people do get hit with lighting).

[®onnie ®ude]

gattsu said:

Just eliminate the point requirement for mods, it's restricting, your arguments are just bad (well for the mod part), and it isn't exactly uniting the board , or getting a general wave of contentment.

The rest of the stuff is okay, it needs work, but it's a beta... so that's okay.

Again, if two mods decided to do a joint mission, and they agreed to use the animals they had in there projects I wouldn't see that being imbalanced. As long as the mission fits.

Now if in your project you didn't agree with that (even if the mods had payed for them), I again would think that would be fine.

From what I've seen NPC animals/vampires haven't done any of the things you've described. There fine as long as the mod knows how to handle them (and mods should know how).

Hell, the things you described (to the best of my knowledge) haven't even happened on these boards... which is indicative of the fact that they probably won't (but probably isn't an ultimatum, people do get hit with lighting).

I'm so mad you STILL think were talking about points. Were talking about POSTS. I'm also annoyed by the fact that you think animals and vampires have been used by other ppl on the site. Gattsu, you were the ONLY one who used an animal and before you begin telling us about what should and should not be done you at least need to be known for actually following the set guidelines from the beginning.

Post counts only determine whether or not you can make an animal or a vampire. Its not that serious so just accept it, because compared to everything else the post deduction per animal and vampire is most likely guideline to stay.

I swear of all the things to disagree w/...

However, I suggest we make this a win win situation. Then everyone can be happy. Animals should stay as 250 posts per creation and Vampires should be 500. This way we can remove the endless grind to 1000 posts, prevent constant spamming for posts, and have some control over how many vamps and animals are in projects at a time or in limbo.

[gattsu]

Points=Posts (keep making that mistake, so if you see points, treat as posts).

Sigh, sorry for the misprint I meant posts, not points... man I wouldn't even think about a points thing, that just wouldn't make sense. It was just a grammatical error, like the ones in your post.

Obviously you didn't read what I wrote, I put in bold (for mods)... for players I think it's fine. I was talking about other mods using vampires/animals obviously.

Personally from my experience with being an animal, it brings alot of detractions (especially if your rping a dumb animal). But for players, a post deduction.... though I guess it could work. If someone

Right now though, these rules aren't very good. They generalize, restrict, and limit the types of missions for mods. A mod shouldn't have to pay for an animal/vampire NPC... it's like telling them what aliens they can or can't use. A mod is being penalized, or has to pay for something that may make the story better?

That doesn't make sense..

And Ronnie don't criticize me, when I made an animal... I wasn't aware that it wasn't allowed (after all, there were animal npcs). Your transgressions though were done knowingly, and willingly.

Plus if you look at the PC animal as an experiment, it worked fine (without these rules of burden). If your going to deduct points, do it for PC's only, and make the rules more based on the room's mod, and what he/?she wants to do (not every shoe fits). If there's problems, they'll be fixed through OOC democracy.

[jjrev609]

gattsu said:

Obviously you didn't read what I wrote, I put in bold (for mods)... for players I think it's fine. I was talking about other mods using vampires/animals obviously.

Quick question, are you a mod? By color I would assume you're not so why worry about it? Dane asked if he could use them in LOG without having to sacrifice posts and he got his answer. Our mods do have freedom to do what they want in their project but as a site we need set rules for certain things. Would you want a big ass group of vampires or animals roaming around the projects, with the mods having to "pay" with posts to be able to use animals and vampires we can prevent that from happening.

Generalizing, restricting, and limiting the types of missions a mod can make. I don't know about you but with animals and vampires thrown into the mix no doubt a mod will come up with an original and unique mission with due time, personally I wouldn't be surprised if Def does sometime soon. Hell I can even think up a few. As for saying only being able to have a certain amount of animals and vampires to saying what aliens a mod can use, there's no limit on the number or strength of the aliens (as long as you can kill them).

When making a story yes I agree you should have freedom to do whatever you want, but we all have some crazy ideas in the back of our heads that would probably cause some drama on here cuz I know I did.

And lastly I must say I can understand some of where you're coming from but in my eyes this is an issue of experience and testing. We don't even have a template for them and already some of us are starting to take the system apart and trying to change the parts they don't like. If you don't like it then simply don't use it, this isn't mandatory. If our mods have an issue I'm sure they'll bring it up. Now I want us to test this system out and improve it as we go or else we're just gonna continue arguing and then we will never use it.

[The Merc]

I still say the 1 animal exception for mods. That way rooms can have their own mascots. (I'm suddenly tempted to want a Badger for Wests mascot although it's subject to change)

[gattsu]

Would you want a big ass group of vampires or animals roaming around the projects, with the mods having to "pay" with posts to be able to use animals and vampires we can prevent that from happening.

I agree, but once again, I've already addressed that alot of times, in my previous posts.

But it's not mandatory so....

[Benry]

jpimpin what the hell are u saying?

when the hell did this idea of a group of vampires or a cavalry started to pop up? Honestly, tell me why a mod should do that? Its pointless. Then again, if this ever happens im sure it will be for story purposes (but im sure it will never happen) unless the mod wants to make his project a tyranny by killing everyone who opposes him/her.

[jjrev609]

Where did I say a mod would do that? How do we know down the line there won't be a mod that'll try that?

[KßзŁŁ]

While I'm not ready to make any concrete decisions about this yet (I'm going to think about all of this for a while, so mods are free to create animals if they feel like it; just be aware that posts may be taken down the line if you intend on interacting with other projects), I'm still leaning towards not giving mods one free animal (any mod should be able to afford one animal easily), and I really want vampires to not be NPC hunters at all. I would like for RPers to be the only people playing vampire hunters. Also, as it stands, we have several people here, myself included, above 1,000 posts, so it's hardly an "endless" grind. It does take quite some time, though; I'll consider dropping the post requirement, but like I said, I'm not ready to put down any concrete rules.

Benry: nobody said a mod should do any of that. we said they shouldn't. I think what gattsu is basically saying is that we don't need any rules because the mods should be smart enough to make a good project. I almost hate to put restrictions on what a mod can do, but I think in the long run it will make for a more rewarding experience.

[Defectron]

I only know what Def let out about the South's apotheosis, but if he makes a sequel... I tremble to think! )

There's going to be a dinosaur gantzer in the sequal "Gantz Final Wars" but that won't be around for long time.

Anyway, I think it should be ok for players to choose animal characters within reason since animals may have some advantages over humans but also have weaknesses. Of course I don't think they should be allowed to play as some animals such as insects, whales or frogs, since that just doesn't work.

[jjrev609]

defectron said:

Of course I don't think they should be allowed to play as some animals such as insects, whales or frogs, since that just doesn't work.

that's in the rules we got so far already, in case u didn't see it

[KßзŁŁ]

Maybe we should expand the larger point deduction to include any kind of alien? So if you want to bring an alien in as a hunter, you pay the 1000 or 500 or whatever we decide is a fair number of posts, regardless of what the alien is. The no suit rule would likely still apply, but things like Dokuko and Jack could be avoided (that was the one thing I didn't like at first about Southern; coming in at the middle and having superpowered NPCs running all over the place around me), or at least limited.

[jjrev609]

please no aliens

[KßзŁŁ]

vampires are aliens...